tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post1040010031408970492..comments2024-03-27T23:59:01.850-07:00Comments on Writing About Writing (And Occasionally Some Writing): Writing for Ten Thousand HoursChris Brecheenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07819138776404280633noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post-51615808560240915552013-02-14T11:11:22.229-08:002013-02-14T11:11:22.229-08:00*writers (sheesh)*writers (sheesh)Chris Brecheenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07819138776404280633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post-60625562860801250902013-02-14T11:06:55.867-08:002013-02-14T11:06:55.867-08:00Yeah, nothing so formulaic is going to be a prescr...Yeah, nothing so formulaic is going to be a prescription for everyone. Even Gladwell in the book talks about all the factors that lead those 10k hours to be "useful" including factors we rarely acknowledge like privilege or social standing. The part that turned into a viral meme did so, I think, because it gives people who DO love something and DO get pleasure from it a rough idea of just how much work there is to answer the question of "When do I get good?"<br /><br />I also think it's far, far, far, FAR more likely someone is "talented" (in as much as that even means) but hasn't put in the work than vice versa. Like you and your golf story, I think most people who discover they are facing limited returns even after hundreds or thousands of hours are likely to filter themselves out through self selection. I've met a staggering number of ambitious writer with some degree of talent, a love of books and a real desire to write who haven't actually done a whole heck of a lot of writing. I can't say that I've actually ever met anyone who wrote constantly, hours a day for years, who didn't have an admirable level of skill at it. (Though I have met a few who adjusted the KIND of writing they did--discovering they weren't quite creative enough for fiction, but that they loved reviewing restaruants [or something]).Chris Brecheenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07819138776404280633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post-66183296672814077742013-02-14T10:55:07.949-08:002013-02-14T10:55:07.949-08:00The thing that bothers me so much about the 10,000...The thing that bothers me so much about the 10,000 hour thing is that it implies mastery is simply a matter of putting in the time, and that's BS to me. As you said, to reach 10,000 hours, it takes 2 to 3 hours a day in 10 years to achieve mastery in any endeavor. So, this gets interpreted as meaning that, if I put in 2 to 3 hours a day practicing golf, I could become as good as Tiger Woods in 10 years regardless of any talent or lack of talent I had at the beginning. It fits with the American ideal that plain old hard work will get you where you want to go and ignores the fact that talent plays a HUGE part in a person's ability and willingness to put in the 2 to 3 hours (or more) each day, every day, for 10 years. Sure, I could become a better golf player if I put in that much time, but the problem is that I'm not going to do it. I'm going to get bored, I'm going to find other, more rewarding things to do because that's how the human brain is wired - we seek reward. We do more of what rewards us because it feels good. For me, no matter how badly the writing is going, no matter how uncomfortable it is, no matter how maddening it is to spend weeks going over the same scene again and again to find the perfect detail, the perfect gesture, the perfect image, I will do it because the process rewards me over and over again every time I sit down to write. It becomes a positive feedback loop. I will work my butt off to get better at it, and read and practice and do everything I can to become the best writer I can. But the talent came first. The desire to tell stories came first. <br /><br />Golf? I've tried. I went through a phase where I wanted to play the game. I worked with an instructor. But, bottom line, the talent isn't there. I had a brief, one-week stretch, after a couple of years of inconsistent practice, where every ball I hit just flew and it felt great. Awesome even. But that wasn't enough to keep me coming back to the driving range 2 to 3 hours every day for another couple of years. And then I fell out of the zone and never got it back again and my golf clubs gathered dust in the corner of the garage. End of story.<br /><br />It's not only practice that matters in this equation. Talent coupled with practice matters a lot more, in my opinion. The talent will get you started, will give you the early rewards that make it possible to dedicate 2 to 3 hours (or more) a day to the practice, but you're not going to keep going if the talent wasn't there to begin with.<br /><br />DianeDianehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13306873432523548264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post-45927743837707926522012-07-14T14:32:04.629-07:002012-07-14T14:32:04.629-07:00Then again, that is strictly my experience I'm...Then again, that is strictly my experience I'm going off of. There could be lots of fiction writers out there that YOU'VE run into who are tilt their nose to the sky and claim that tech writing can't be that tough.Chris Brecheenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07819138776404280633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post-10466497938399651732012-07-14T14:25:46.260-07:002012-07-14T14:25:46.260-07:00I'm often surprised at how often I run into th...I'm often surprised at how often I run into the attitude that writing is writing is writing. Though now that I think about it, it often seems like it's a sort of "one way" directional claim that creative writing requires no particular skills. I don't see the same people claiming that their job could easily be picked up by a fiction writer--just the other way around.<br /><br />I used to really love the saying: "Acting is really easy, until you do it." Honestly, I think that saying could almost apply to anything besides the people in Cirque De Soleil or astronauts (or maybe selling hot dogs at the other end). It's just probably not as easy as it looks.Chris Brecheenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07819138776404280633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post-26289009671032994142012-07-14T14:09:33.117-07:002012-07-14T14:09:33.117-07:00"I have a lot of friends who are very skilled..."I have a lot of friends who are very skilled writers at tech or freelance writing who can attest to the fact that creative writing is a whole different beast."<br /><br />True dat. This latest round of job hunting is showing me how much I really do know my shit about tech writing... more than I gave myself credit for a month ago. (And you know what it says at the top of my resume? '13 years of experience'.) But I would not even try to write a novel, let alone get one published-- and even a short story would be Extremely Freaking Unlikely. Like, if I succeeded, I might have ONE in me that happened to be good enough. I'm not saying that one kind of writer can't also be the other kind... but it would take hard work in BOTH areas, with less overlap than most writers probably think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post-83741298874684302012-07-13T16:33:22.182-07:002012-07-13T16:33:22.182-07:00Yeah, the point I was getting at early on was how ...Yeah, the point I was getting at early on was how his 10k fits into grander ideas, and that he never intended it to be a recipe for success. What everyone heard and took to the bank was a much different message--one I like a little better anyway because it's not just about the freakishly awesome uberpeeps, but is a pretty good baseline for a mere mortal being able to be "really good" at something. <br /><br />I read Outliers a couple of years ago, but I was at a friend's so I was speed reading it. I also didn't much care for it, so I never bothered to buy it myself. I had to fill in my memory by looking it up and the sites talk about "phenom" a lot. Many of the sites I found were also quick to point out how often "Ten Thousand Hours" is misrepresented.<br /><br />The way I hear it used is more like "Put in your ten thousand hours if you want to be good at something! Ra. Ra. Ra." Then people get their undergarments twisted because that's not REALLY what Gladwell's point was. Frankly, I prefer the misconception because it has something everyone can take to the bank. If you care about doing something well, be ready to do it for hours a day...for YEARS...before you're extraordinary enough at it to stand out. We all kind of get that intellectually, but putting a number on it really nails home the idea of how much work that really is.<br /><br />I swear to god Kest, you're going to give me a complex or something. :-p I think you've made a point of telling me the last three or four times I've seen you that you don't read W.A.W., but then you show up to disagree with me. I'm starting to imagine you sitting around your house, and then you pause...sniff the air...and say "Chris is WRONG!" as you dive for your computer.Chris Brecheenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07819138776404280633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2660089177097719300.post-17486905844347562302012-07-13T15:46:43.638-07:002012-07-13T15:46:43.638-07:00Ohhhhhh. You made me get up off the couch, where ...Ohhhhhh. You made me get up off the couch, where I am supposed to be working, and go and get my copy of Outliers, just so I can agree with you. By disagreeing with you. <br /><br />I couldn't find the word 'phenom' in the 10,000 hour chapter. That doesn't mean it's not there, but it does make pretty clear that, in the original studies he's quoting, people who put in the time did well. 10,000 hours may be a minimum, but it's a pretty good minimum. The trick of the chapter, though - what he's really saying by the end - is that one's ability to put in those 10,000 hours is not necessarily within one's control. And that what one gets out the other side...well, it turns out that being an expert is not the same thing as being a success. In addition to 10,000 hours, you also have to have good timing, and that's just as tricky if not more so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com